boosting b18a ASAP
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From: Working my life away
Re: boosting b18a ASAP
But with a 50 trim, or 57 trim t3/t04E setup, at low boost, it will provide those levels, and at higher boosts, it can reach 350-450 hp. 620cc injectors are good from around 250-400 hp, assuming you have a proper way of regulating fuel pressure.
I agree, rods/pistons aren't all there is to it. Hence why, in my original post, I said, if he has the experience/knowledge/ability to do engine work, source out the work needed, and get the parts. Otherwise, give a professional a specific goal, specific information, and let them handle it. They'll tell you what you can pump it to with those parts, before you need to upgrade again.
But, anyways.
I agree, rods/pistons aren't all there is to it. Hence why, in my original post, I said, if he has the experience/knowledge/ability to do engine work, source out the work needed, and get the parts. Otherwise, give a professional a specific goal, specific information, and let them handle it. They'll tell you what you can pump it to with those parts, before you need to upgrade again.
But, anyways.
BOOBS>EVERTHING!
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Re: boosting b18a ASAP
Dude if all you want is 240whp.
Get some 440cc injectors or 550s if you want DSMs.
A fuel pump.
A turbo kit.
And go get tuned.
Seriously, this is the stupidest shit ever. Walbro 255 and RC 440s has made 340 before. 340, thats not a type-o. So 440s will be perfect for 240whp.
Get some 440cc injectors or 550s if you want DSMs.
A fuel pump.
A turbo kit.
And go get tuned.
Seriously, this is the stupidest shit ever. Walbro 255 and RC 440s has made 340 before. 340, thats not a type-o. So 440s will be perfect for 240whp.
Slowest HRC Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 553
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From: Hampton Roads
Re: boosting b18a ASAP
the last prelude h22 closed deck top to bottom built turbo motor we built,ran 440cc injectors to the tune of 328whp/306tq with 74%duty cycle,running a walboro 255lph in tank pump. the 550 cc injectors are overkill for 240whp. do it your own way,but do the research too. honda rules,not disagreeing,but i've been doing this for 13 years,the old school methods still work just fine. this kid wants a budget build remember??? anything above 310cc's and he's going aftermarket for tuning period. keep that in mind. dsm 450cc/550 cc are great,on A DSM,NOT A HONDA!!!! the resistor box design is useless,and prone to failure. do it right kid call the companies who get paid to do the research, they will guide you in the right direction.
I agree with you grease monkey, but if the initial goal is 240, the planned level should be around 300-350 hp.
braap braap
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 14,536
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From: Portsmouth
Re: boosting b18a ASAP
Nobody said they won't supply that.
Nobody said the stocker won't hold that.
But, what HP level did you quit trying to get more at?
And, so you're aware: According to the RC site, You'd need 100 lbs of fuel pressure @ boost (edit: for reference: with the 440cc injectors mentioned above) to support 340 hp.....
Can it be done? YES! Is it a good idea???????
Not when there's very little difference in the price of a set of injectors that will provide enough fuel for the application at stock pressures.
I agree with Grease Monkey. He's best off making sure he has good parts, and those needed to tune it, before he spends the money elsewhere. But, for someone who stated he likes "spirited" driving, I can relate. And he'll get used to it, and then want more.....
So, at what point is it better to go ahead and get things right now, versus going and re-building it with the right stuff later?
Nobody said the stocker won't hold that.
But, what HP level did you quit trying to get more at?
And, so you're aware: According to the RC site, You'd need 100 lbs of fuel pressure @ boost (edit: for reference: with the 440cc injectors mentioned above) to support 340 hp.....
Can it be done? YES! Is it a good idea???????
Not when there's very little difference in the price of a set of injectors that will provide enough fuel for the application at stock pressures.
I agree with Grease Monkey. He's best off making sure he has good parts, and those needed to tune it, before he spends the money elsewhere. But, for someone who stated he likes "spirited" driving, I can relate. And he'll get used to it, and then want more.....
So, at what point is it better to go ahead and get things right now, versus going and re-building it with the right stuff later?
The car had a intank walbro 255. IIRC it was the hi-psi model and was at 55psi of fuel pressure. The car made 340whp.
But I'm done bench racing when budgets go out the window....
EDIT*.
Fuck injectors.
FMU it and call it a day.
Pull enough timing out.
Go to your local skreet racing hangout.
Suck motherfuckers up who either
A) can't drive
B) their cars are slower than yours.
FMU FOR LIFE!@!!!!!
Last edited by Jarrod; Oct 9, 2007 at 08:29 PM.
Slowest HRC Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 553
Likes: 0
From: Hampton Roads
Re: boosting b18a ASAP
LOL @ 100 psi of fuel pressure.
The car had a intank walbro 255. IIRC it was the hi-psi model and was at 55psi of fuel pressure. The car made 340whp.
But I'm done bench racing when budgets go out the window....
EDIT*.
Fuck injectors.
FMU it and call it a day.
Pull enough timing out.
Go to your local skreet racing hangout.
Suck motherfuckers up who either
A) can't drive
B) their cars are slower than yours.
FMU FOR LIFE!@!!!!!
The car had a intank walbro 255. IIRC it was the hi-psi model and was at 55psi of fuel pressure. The car made 340whp.
But I'm done bench racing when budgets go out the window....
EDIT*.
Fuck injectors.
FMU it and call it a day.
Pull enough timing out.
Go to your local skreet racing hangout.
Suck motherfuckers up who either
A) can't drive
B) their cars are slower than yours.
FMU FOR LIFE!@!!!!!
55 psi? 5.5 lbs of boost on a 10:1?
6.8 lbs of boost on a 8:1
9.2 lbs of boost on a 6:1
I'm familiar with a lot of turbo's. I don't really know any that put out 340 hp @ 9.2 lbs of boost.
Just because the base pressure is 55 lbs, doesn't indicate actual fuel pressure with the FMU. You do understand how an FMU works, right?
Forget Bench Racing....
* Brake specific should be .45 to .50 for naturally aspirated engines,
.55 TO .60 for supercharged engines,
and .60 to .65 for turbocharged engines.
That's from RC's site. www.rceng.com
Plug that into the calculator.
Assuming it had a 10:1 FMU, at 6 lbs of boost, the fuel pressure started to increase at 10 lbs fuel pressure per lb of boost. So, let's say it was pushing 13-14 psi, on a rather good sized turbo, proper sizing would have been around what? an 8:1 FMU to achieve the needed 100 psi fuel pressure to feed it? Do you not understand, it can be done with an FMU, but 440cc/min won't supply enough fuel for 340 hp.
In fact, with 100% duty cycle, minimum calculation of .60 for a Turbocharger, and 55 psi of fuel pressure, you'd need 477cc/min to make that power level. That's assuming the motor design was able to harness every drop of fuel you put in. (Most run about 90% efficiency, some would argue much less.)
Excerpt from article found here: http://www.hondatuningmagazine.com/f...ems/index.html
Fuel Pressure
The relationship between changing the fuel pressure and the amount of fuel delivered is the square root of the ratio of fuel pressure. If fuel pressure is doubled, then about 40 percent more fuel is delivered. To double the fuel delivery, four times the fuel pressure needs to be used. But that's only possible if the pump itself is capable of delivering fuel at that pressure.
How much does a Honda fuel pump actually flow? The results may surprise you. A stock '99 Civic Si (B16A) fuel pump flows enough fuel at 35 psi for 400 crank hp. A stock '97 Prelude fuel pump flows enough for 476 crank hp. It's interesting to note that as pressure is increased to 75 psi, such as with a rising rate fuel management unit (FMU), the pump can only flow enough for a little more than 200 hp.
If the rest of the fuel system is up to scratch, and even allowing a 20-percent safety margin, you should have no problem making 300 crank hp with 550cc injectors at the stock 40 psi fuel pressure with a Civic fuel pump. Honda ECUs will even idle injectors as large as 800 to 900cc, as long as they're calibrated correctly. On the other hand, if you boost your car, use a rising rate FMU set to rise to 75 psi or higher, and have more than 200 crank hp, then you're in trouble, as you'll probably experience significant leaning.
Too much pressure has other disadvantages. Fuel injectors require more current to open, meaning they run hotter and are less reliable as a result. In addition, they can take longer to open, and there's a greater tendency for the fuel to leak past the injector seals. If the fuel pressure is really high, there's a chance of rupturing the diaphragm of the fuel pressure regulator (usually rated to 100 psi), resulting in fuel simply dumping into the intake.
This is why manufacturers don't run high fuel pressures, and instead use larger injectors and tune the engine management system. Rising rate FMUs are inexpensive, but the cost of injectors and an electronic fuel management system is normally less than the cost of an engine rebuild. The Civic fuel pump even has an internal pressure relief valve set to 75 psi, which bleeds fuel internally back into the tank above this pressure if things go really haywire.
A good link to an injector and pressure sizing calculator can be found at RC Engineering's Web site, www.rceng.com/technical.htm.
Real world, your method will work. Is it ideal, or the best way to go????
NO!
Registered member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,041
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From: Working my life away
Re: boosting b18a ASAP
You make a valid point, but we are talking real world application not text book.
HOWEVER not everyone here has the budget for 1000hp Aeromotive fuel systems and huge turbo's on big elaborate builds. He wants to make decent horsepower on a budget and he was given people's opinions on how to do it. In my opinion the simplest setups are the ones that work the best. While on paper they may not be ideal they do work, and work very well.
I personally think a nice set of injectors and some sort of management (I like crome) is the way to go. Throw a nice Walbro pump in for piece of mind and call it a day.
HOWEVER not everyone here has the budget for 1000hp Aeromotive fuel systems and huge turbo's on big elaborate builds. He wants to make decent horsepower on a budget and he was given people's opinions on how to do it. In my opinion the simplest setups are the ones that work the best. While on paper they may not be ideal they do work, and work very well.
I personally think a nice set of injectors and some sort of management (I like crome) is the way to go. Throw a nice Walbro pump in for piece of mind and call it a day.
missed....
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,431
Likes: 0
From: Poquoson
Re: boosting b18a ASAP
this is stupid. i made 310whp on 12lbs of boost on a STOCK gsr. with a good turbo kit and a proper tune, stock motors are just fine for 300ish...
if your goals are for higher then obviously you will need to touch the motor.
if your goals are for higher then obviously you will need to touch the motor.
braap braap
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 14,536
Likes: 0
From: Portsmouth
Re: boosting b18a ASAP
55 psi? 5.5 lbs of boost on a 10:1?
6.8 lbs of boost on a 8:1
9.2 lbs of boost on a 6:1
I'm familiar with a lot of turbo's. I don't really know any that put out 340 hp @ 9.2 lbs of boost.
Just because the base pressure is 55 lbs, doesn't indicate actual fuel pressure with the FMU. You do understand how an FMU works, right?
Forget Bench Racing....
* Brake specific should be .45 to .50 for naturally aspirated engines,
.55 TO .60 for supercharged engines,
and .60 to .65 for turbocharged engines.
That's from RC's site. www.rceng.com
Plug that into the calculator.
Assuming it had a 10:1 FMU, at 6 lbs of boost, the fuel pressure started to increase at 10 lbs fuel pressure per lb of boost. So, let's say it was pushing 13-14 psi, on a rather good sized turbo, proper sizing would have been around what? an 8:1 FMU to achieve the needed 100 psi fuel pressure to feed it? Do you not understand, it can be done with an FMU, but 440cc/min won't supply enough fuel for 340 hp.
In fact, with 100% duty cycle, minimum calculation of .60 for a Turbocharger, and 55 psi of fuel pressure, you'd need 477cc/min to make that power level. That's assuming the motor design was able to harness every drop of fuel you put in. (Most run about 90% efficiency, some would argue much less.)
Excerpt from article found here: http://www.hondatuningmagazine.com/f...ems/index.html
Fuel Pressure
The relationship between changing the fuel pressure and the amount of fuel delivered is the square root of the ratio of fuel pressure. If fuel pressure is doubled, then about 40 percent more fuel is delivered. To double the fuel delivery, four times the fuel pressure needs to be used. But that's only possible if the pump itself is capable of delivering fuel at that pressure.
How much does a Honda fuel pump actually flow? The results may surprise you. A stock '99 Civic Si (B16A) fuel pump flows enough fuel at 35 psi for 400 crank hp. A stock '97 Prelude fuel pump flows enough for 476 crank hp. It's interesting to note that as pressure is increased to 75 psi, such as with a rising rate fuel management unit (FMU), the pump can only flow enough for a little more than 200 hp.
If the rest of the fuel system is up to scratch, and even allowing a 20-percent safety margin, you should have no problem making 300 crank hp with 550cc injectors at the stock 40 psi fuel pressure with a Civic fuel pump. Honda ECUs will even idle injectors as large as 800 to 900cc, as long as they're calibrated correctly. On the other hand, if you boost your car, use a rising rate FMU set to rise to 75 psi or higher, and have more than 200 crank hp, then you're in trouble, as you'll probably experience significant leaning.
Too much pressure has other disadvantages. Fuel injectors require more current to open, meaning they run hotter and are less reliable as a result. In addition, they can take longer to open, and there's a greater tendency for the fuel to leak past the injector seals. If the fuel pressure is really high, there's a chance of rupturing the diaphragm of the fuel pressure regulator (usually rated to 100 psi), resulting in fuel simply dumping into the intake.
This is why manufacturers don't run high fuel pressures, and instead use larger injectors and tune the engine management system. Rising rate FMUs are inexpensive, but the cost of injectors and an electronic fuel management system is normally less than the cost of an engine rebuild. The Civic fuel pump even has an internal pressure relief valve set to 75 psi, which bleeds fuel internally back into the tank above this pressure if things go really haywire.
A good link to an injector and pressure sizing calculator can be found at RC Engineering's Web site, www.rceng.com/technical.htm.
Real world, your method will work. Is it ideal, or the best way to go????
NO!
6.8 lbs of boost on a 8:1
9.2 lbs of boost on a 6:1
I'm familiar with a lot of turbo's. I don't really know any that put out 340 hp @ 9.2 lbs of boost.
Just because the base pressure is 55 lbs, doesn't indicate actual fuel pressure with the FMU. You do understand how an FMU works, right?
Forget Bench Racing....
* Brake specific should be .45 to .50 for naturally aspirated engines,
.55 TO .60 for supercharged engines,
and .60 to .65 for turbocharged engines.
That's from RC's site. www.rceng.com
Plug that into the calculator.
Assuming it had a 10:1 FMU, at 6 lbs of boost, the fuel pressure started to increase at 10 lbs fuel pressure per lb of boost. So, let's say it was pushing 13-14 psi, on a rather good sized turbo, proper sizing would have been around what? an 8:1 FMU to achieve the needed 100 psi fuel pressure to feed it? Do you not understand, it can be done with an FMU, but 440cc/min won't supply enough fuel for 340 hp.
In fact, with 100% duty cycle, minimum calculation of .60 for a Turbocharger, and 55 psi of fuel pressure, you'd need 477cc/min to make that power level. That's assuming the motor design was able to harness every drop of fuel you put in. (Most run about 90% efficiency, some would argue much less.)
Excerpt from article found here: http://www.hondatuningmagazine.com/f...ems/index.html
Fuel Pressure
The relationship between changing the fuel pressure and the amount of fuel delivered is the square root of the ratio of fuel pressure. If fuel pressure is doubled, then about 40 percent more fuel is delivered. To double the fuel delivery, four times the fuel pressure needs to be used. But that's only possible if the pump itself is capable of delivering fuel at that pressure.
How much does a Honda fuel pump actually flow? The results may surprise you. A stock '99 Civic Si (B16A) fuel pump flows enough fuel at 35 psi for 400 crank hp. A stock '97 Prelude fuel pump flows enough for 476 crank hp. It's interesting to note that as pressure is increased to 75 psi, such as with a rising rate fuel management unit (FMU), the pump can only flow enough for a little more than 200 hp.
If the rest of the fuel system is up to scratch, and even allowing a 20-percent safety margin, you should have no problem making 300 crank hp with 550cc injectors at the stock 40 psi fuel pressure with a Civic fuel pump. Honda ECUs will even idle injectors as large as 800 to 900cc, as long as they're calibrated correctly. On the other hand, if you boost your car, use a rising rate FMU set to rise to 75 psi or higher, and have more than 200 crank hp, then you're in trouble, as you'll probably experience significant leaning.
Too much pressure has other disadvantages. Fuel injectors require more current to open, meaning they run hotter and are less reliable as a result. In addition, they can take longer to open, and there's a greater tendency for the fuel to leak past the injector seals. If the fuel pressure is really high, there's a chance of rupturing the diaphragm of the fuel pressure regulator (usually rated to 100 psi), resulting in fuel simply dumping into the intake.
This is why manufacturers don't run high fuel pressures, and instead use larger injectors and tune the engine management system. Rising rate FMUs are inexpensive, but the cost of injectors and an electronic fuel management system is normally less than the cost of an engine rebuild. The Civic fuel pump even has an internal pressure relief valve set to 75 psi, which bleeds fuel internally back into the tank above this pressure if things go really haywire.
A good link to an injector and pressure sizing calculator can be found at RC Engineering's Web site, www.rceng.com/technical.htm.
Real world, your method will work. Is it ideal, or the best way to go????
NO!
And MY car was on a FMU and was faster than alot of TUNED cars on more PSI than MY CAR was.
Shad was the tuner of the car that made 340whp on a b16 turbo with RC 440 injectors. The car was daily driven for 3 years untill it finally shattered a spark plug and is now making around 500whp on the same b16 block. Now hes on bigger injectors with guess what... the same fuel pump and stock lines.
And when I said use a FMU, I was talking about on stock injectors, as a joke. Your reading way too far into this.
Aren't you the same guy that argued to me and another member about boosting a stock LS motor?
You make a valid point, but we are talking real world application not text book.
HOWEVER not everyone here has the budget for 1000hp Aeromotive fuel systems and huge turbo's on big elaborate builds. He wants to make decent horsepower on a budget and he was given people's opinions on how to do it. In my opinion the simplest setups are the ones that work the best. While on paper they may not be ideal they do work, and work very well.
I personally think a nice set of injectors and some sort of management (I like crome) is the way to go. Throw a nice Walbro pump in for piece of mind and call it a day.
HOWEVER not everyone here has the budget for 1000hp Aeromotive fuel systems and huge turbo's on big elaborate builds. He wants to make decent horsepower on a budget and he was given people's opinions on how to do it. In my opinion the simplest setups are the ones that work the best. While on paper they may not be ideal they do work, and work very well.
I personally think a nice set of injectors and some sort of management (I like crome) is the way to go. Throw a nice Walbro pump in for piece of mind and call it a day.
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Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Working my life away
