kawgomoo

well i agree that was the super simple version... but in a carb vs efi debate i didnt think getting all technical would do any good.

everything you said is true... but it doesnt really help the issue at hand.
dont think ive never dealt with a raw ems before, yes its a ton of work. however the mustang being what it is, nearly everything has been done before by someone else. you can typically get a setup and base map that are very very close and all you have to do is a little wot tuning on the rollers. also the headaches are a one time deal. take the car to a reputable tuner, let them get it all set up and when the weather and atmos. changes happen the ecu should make the corrections itself.

i think its futile to even have this discussion. if carbs were any better then they wouldnt have been all but phased out at this point. even industry that cares none at all about emissions, and barely about drivability has gone to efi. its just the better way. most race cars run efi or mechanical injection. with the few exceptions... nascar, lawn mower racing, golf carts.

an uhh... since when was efi tuning anything more than pushing buttons? the installation isnt really a part of tuning, and unless you did something wrong you should have to make no mechanical changes except possibly slight tweaks of fuel pressure. once the timing offset is where you need it theres no need to even pop the hood. most efi software is slick and polished and pretty darn close to app specific.

hell im sure you can take the stock ford electronics and chip tune, or otherwise hack the stock ecu without really even having to get into the nightmare of a raw ems system.

id like to point out that im not trying to attack anyone, and i am by no means an accomplished tuner. i let someone else do that because i understand how critical and potentially frustrating dialing in the cal file can be. maybe im retarded, but i really enjoy the set it and forget it nature of efi vs the constant tinkering of carbs.

John L.

For the price of a new carb you could have a Megasquirt EFI setup with LC-1 wideband runnign in the car. The MS system is Speed Density, so no airflow meters to restrict things. You will have to retune for modifications typically, but it's easier than playing with a carb that only has one setting (jets). A carb becomes a restriction in itself, or if you go bigger so it's not a restriction, it's hard to get it to run right, so you're always hurting your power unless you get the perfect size carb (difficult, most people just slap one on).

If you really care about max power, no matter what you do you'll be tuning with a wideband and/or on a dyno. Of course my opinion is to go EFI.

You can always get a MAF setup that will work okay, but I doubt it would ever be as smooth and driveable as a Megasquirt system. Check out the guys at Turbomustangs.com that are running them, and even more at Turboford.org, including me! Currently around 300 WHP on a 2.3 turbo four cylinder. If you ever decide to add boost or major upgrades and go for big power, you'll be glad you had the EFI. Driveability is simply amazing, no choke, no more mechanical control, and it's easy to set everything. The software is completely user friendly, I can guarantee that.

And assuming the car is factory EFI, (but at least the EFI parts are available from those years if it's not) you're already setup for EFI very easily. All I did was make a jumper harness to plug into my factory harness, stock sensors, no wires had to be cut at all.

The MS is DIY which requires soldering which is easy to learn, a little wiring might be required, but you can also buy them pre-assembled. Putting one together is quite a learning experience, but not hard if you can just follow directions. It's the super cheap way to EFI.

I haven't even mentioned the extra features you get with EFI that will require extra boxes if you go carb. With Megasquirt, launch control is built in, as well as: water injection control, closed loop wideband O2 correction, AFR target tables, multiple rev limits (hard and soft), plus full ignition control of course so your ignition timing can be fully mapped out, and so many other features I could never list them all here. It's very similar to a FAST EFI system at like 1/10 of the cost.
www.megasquirt.info
www.msefi.com

Carbs might be simpler, but if you think they are a better choice on a platform that was designed to be EFI from the factory, then it shows you are unwilling to learn a few simple ideas to go EFI. Spend a few moments on those websites and I think you'll see EFI is not really that complicated and has far better fuel control.

kawgomoo

i completely agree with this guy.... megasquirt is the ultimate freeware

TheMx3

I run Megasquirt and spark and have not had any probs as of yet. ITs pretty damn great.

Nic

I disagree with you guys 100%. I grew up with EFI...building/tuning EFI cars. Was one of the first people in the area running the EEC Tuner, and came to know the Tweecer inside and out. I had always bought into the myth that you would make more power with EFI than with a carb. In fact, I had never even touched a carb'd car until this one that I just built. I think your argument here is because you don't understand the nature of the beast we're dealing with. You're simply not going to make the power from a 5.0 mustang running EFI that you will running a carb. There's a few reasons why carbs are superior in the world of small block Fords.

Intake selection plays a huge role in these cars ability to make power. Your typical two-piece EFI intake for these cars has a 12 - 15" runner vs. the 5.5" - 6.5" runners you're going to get with a carb'd intake. The shorter runner intake not only is going to allow you an extra few hundred rpm up top, but you're also going to be moving the air through the runners faster, which is going to make more power at any given rpm vs the slower air movement you're experiencing with the long runner EFI intake.

Second, and most important I think, is price. I have less than $600 invested into my entire carb setup. On the same token, you can expect to spend $500 - $600 on the intake alone if you want something that will move as much air as what I've got. Then add another $200 for your throttle body, another $250 for a mass air flow sensor, $200 for injectors, $150 for fuel rails, and $300 more for tuning software, and you're suddenly $1600 deep into a setup that still won't perform as well as my $600 intake/carb setup. An EFI setup that would perform as well as my carb'd setup is going to cost you closer to $2500. Obviously, I'm excluding fuel pumps and pressure regulators as the cost is a wash on those parts.

Third, driveability. It's an extremely common myth that carb'd cars won't allow for the same drivability as an efi car. I beg to differ. Give a properly tuned carbed car a few minutes to warm up and it will drive just as well as an EFI car does, plus you get the advantage of a quicker revving (see above paragraph) motor. My carbed Mustang drives just well as any stock EFI car I've ever been in and better than most people's "professionally tuned" EFI cars I've driven also.

4 - Fewer parts = fewer parts to break/go bad. Self explanatory. Fewer sensors to go bad, fewer throttle body set screws to be adjusted all the time (if you don't appreciate that, you've never owned a 5.0 Mustang)

Fifth, this is trivial, but carbed engine bays are so much cleaner. Once you get rid of all the wiring to the sensors on an EFI system the engine bay becomes so much more aesthetically pleasing to look at, simpler to work on because you're not unplugging sensors and pushing wires out of the way every time you need to work on something. I'm lazy, so I can't stress enough how much I appreciate this aspect of owning a carb'd car.

Finally, nobody has managed to make as much power naturally aspirated or with nitrous using EFI as they have with carbs. Argue this until you're blue in the face, but it's a simple mater of fact. Carb'd cars run harder. See, for example, IHRA and NHRA pro-stock. The IHRA briefly experimented with EFI in it's pro-stock class, however, you'll see that everyone is back to running carb'd setups. I hardly think this is because they couldn't find anyone to tune the EFI systems properly. Warren Johnson of NHRA Pro Stock fame has even been on record as saying they make more power with carbs than they do with EFI. These are some of the most advanced engine setups in the world, and they're running carbeurators. All of the fastest cars in NMRA Hot Street and Pure Street run carbs...in spite of an added weight penalty for running them! Same goes for Fun Ford Weekend Street Bandit and Street Warrior. Why would these guys be running carbs if they could make more power with EFI? Simple. The carbs make more power!

I'll wrap this up with a good read for those of you who are interested in looking into this topic a bit more. http://www.pro-system.com/scoop92102.html

Fabrik8

You think a link from a carb manufacturer may be a little biased? I know what they're trying to say, but broad sweeping statements (like about atomization) aren't the whole truth.

Your quicker revving argument is pointless. It doesn't have anything to do with the carb at all, just the intake like you said. Put one of the carb replacement throttle body setups on that intake and then the comparison is valid. Runner length is there for a reason, short runners don't make low end power, it doesn't matter what kind of fuel delivery you have. It's physics. Carbs can't be used on longer runners because of fuel pooling, poor distribution, etc., but that's not a problem at all when you can slap an injector wherever you want it.
One of the reasons that big dog racers still use carbs is that if the difference is small enough (or null), there isn't any reason to use an EFI setup. In that case, I'd say use a carb and save a lot of headache. IHRA toyed with EFI but I think they backed off because of cost. Many racing classes don't allow things like EFI for this reason, and you have to play by the rules. EFI for racing is hugely more expensive than EFI for the street, because of the cost of motorsport-grade components, etc.

Just for sake of argument, if carb'd cars "run harder" why doesn't anyone in the top levels of circuit racing (IRL, Champ, WRC, LMP1/2, GT, JGTC, BTCC, DTM, F1/F3/F3000, etc) use carbs? If carbs were superior for power, where are they?? Seems like NASCAR and drag racing are the only high level motorsport classes where carbs are still used.. They also use decades old engine design too.. but that's another argument in itself..

MerF

IMO, for all out racing (not a DD car), go carba nd don't look back. Enjoy the same power without the hassle.

But for a daily driven or boosted application, I can't see avoiding going EFI.

windsor

If you switch to a carb setup on a EFI mustang, would the car still pass emissions testing?

Nic

I can appreciate your argument from a theoretical stand point. Theoretically, EFI looks better. Then again, communism looks good on paper too. This is why we shouldn't put much faith in theories. In the real world, carbs simply make more power. You show me one world reknown engine builder that says they can make more power with an EFI setup, and I'll show you 10 who say the opposite. You think Pro Stock racers use carbs because of cost? Let's be realistic here, their rotating assemblies alone cost more than most of our cars. Like any other heads up racer, they're running the carb because it gives them a comeptetive edge, ie. it makes them faster. The argument that any heads up racer uses a carb over EFI because it's cheaper is completely ridiculous. You should know just as well as anyone else that in the world of heads up racing, getting to the finish line first is the #1 priority regardless of cost, especially in a high end, big money class such as pro stock. This still also wouldn't explain why the top racers in all of the n/a classes in both major Ford Only racing sanctioning bodies are willing to use the carbs in spite of the added weight penalty (or why would they even have the weight penalty if you couldn't run faster with the carb?). These are guys running $30k motors. I hardly think they're running the carbs just to save a grand or two when they're already running such a high-end combination. Again, cost is not a determining factor in heads up drag racing. To quote Sonny Leonard, "To this point I've never had an EFI system on one of my engines make as much horsepower as we can make using carburetors. EFI engines generally make about 20 horsepower less and about the same torque." You can throw theory around all you want, but facts are facts.

MerF

You probably won't pass emissions with a carb...without some serious fine tuning to get it as efficient as it's EFI counterpart (stock).

Once again, I think the argument more lies in "is it a streeted dd car that may ever see boost (other than N20)?