VA Speed tune - Never again.
01-26-2012 | 05:56 AM
#11
DESTROYS DONUTS !!
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,275
Likes: 0
From: the seed has sprouted.
Re: VA Speed tune - Never again.
when the engines they build,the tunes they do and the cars they are working on continue to blow up and come apart,and you have not touched them, they wont be able to use that bs excuse anymore. It sucks they are trying to accuse you of shit when its obvious even before you were there, and well after they continually blow ass at what they do. I have only ever worked on one single v8 engine, my buddys built iroc motor, I just helped him mate the trans and put the engine in after I painted the car. Yet I am confident that I could do a better job in nearly all aspects of an engine build or setup than they could do.
01-26-2012 | 10:27 AM
#12
Cock chugginton
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,544
Likes: 0
From: Va Biotch
Re: VA Speed tune - Never again.
exactly...
when the engines they build,the tunes they do and the cars they are working on continue to blow up and come apart,and you have not touched them, they wont be able to use that bs excuse anymore. It sucks they are trying to accuse you of shit when its obvious even before you were there, and well after they continually blow ass at what they do. I have only ever worked on one single v8 engine, my buddys built iroc motor, I just helped him mate the trans and put the engine in after I painted the car. Yet I am confident that I could do a better job in nearly all aspects of an engine build or setup than they could do.
when the engines they build,the tunes they do and the cars they are working on continue to blow up and come apart,and you have not touched them, they wont be able to use that bs excuse anymore. It sucks they are trying to accuse you of shit when its obvious even before you were there, and well after they continually blow ass at what they do. I have only ever worked on one single v8 engine, my buddys built iroc motor, I just helped him mate the trans and put the engine in after I painted the car. Yet I am confident that I could do a better job in nearly all aspects of an engine build or setup than they could do.
01-26-2012 | 03:48 PM
#13
Thread Starter
Registered Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
From: Newport News
Re: VA Speed tune - Never again.
Going to change the way this is worded. I don't want this to be a pissing match. Facts are all I'm going to post.
Last edited by CTS-V Bryan; 01-26-2012 at 05:51 PM. Reason: Rethinking post.
01-27-2012 | 11:39 AM
#15
Thread Starter
Registered Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
From: Newport News
Re: VA Speed tune - Never again.
Shawn's reply email is below. This is what I sent back to them.
Shannon,
Over the last few weeks I have learned an abundance of information regarding tuning via HPTuners forum and also talking with Ed. This has been quite an experience, to say the least. I've learned quite a bit about cars. First, here is Shawn's reply in full. Below that, you will find my replies to his statement.
(To Clarify, the Red is Shawn's text, the Blue is my rebuttal)
Shannon, I looked over Brian’s tune. To be honest, I don’t see anything in it that would cause engine damage.
That's the root of the problem right there. There are problems with the tune that could INDEED cause engine damage.
To say that the the way the knock sensors were tuned would cause engine damage would just be false.
No, this comment is just false. I'm not sure why he thinks having the ECU put in timing unbelievably fast after a knock event occurs is a good thing.
Understanding the purpose of the knock sensors and how they work would let you know this.
I agree. If the tuners at VA Speed understood the function of the table in question, you would not make such an idiotic statement. But please, Shawn, school me.
The purpose of the knock sensors from GM is to combat running low octane gas in their vehicles. In a performance application with proper gas, the knock sensors should never see use. If they do, either the vehicle is tuned improperly or there is some other problem that would actually be covered up by the knock sensors pulling timing out without the driver knowing that the timing was being pulled out.
Ok, now we're getting somewhere. Now we're seeing just how much experience you have with the later model PCMs. Had you had more experience with them, you'd know that from the factory, the knock sensors are so sensitive, that virtually ALL of them have some amount of knock retard even running 93 octane pump gas. So, does that mean they are "tuned improperly" from GM? We'll revisit this comment a bit later.
The knock sensors were still functional in this case, they just brought the timing back in fast in the absence of further spark knock, if the was still spark knock-the timing stayed out.
This is where you are dead wrong, and potentially engine damaging dead wrong. The timing is not put back "fast in the absence of further knock". It is put back AFTER KNOCK HAS BEEN DETECTED AND TIMING IS PULLED. The PCM does not wait until it is no longer knocking. It begins to add the timing back at the rate specified in the knock retard recovery rate table. Don't go by the table definition. Go by EXPERIENCE, WHICH I KNOW YOU LACK. If you look at a data log of knock retard, you can see the timing is added back immediately after the knock occurs. How quickly it is restored is dependent on the recovery rate table. Again, the operation of this parameter is obvious in a data log. You need to completely disregard the table explanation, and look at a log. The table explanations aren't always right.
This is the root cause of the issues with my car. It was knocking audibly. Had the KR recovery rate table not been jacked up so high, the knock would not have been audible. Even if it were suffering from KR, it most likely would not have been audible. The reason it was audible is because the PCM was restoring the timing, faster than it could pull it back out. It resulted in uncontrollable knock. Surely we all know by being in the automotive field that knock isn't good for anything in the motor.
So know you have the possibility of engine damage because you are tuned to the edge without your sensors you are now relying on instead of using as a safety net.
I know you don't understand this, but VA Speed effectively disabled the knock retard.
The timing map was in a very safe area for that engine.
Apparently not if it was audibly knocking, and had no signs of ceasing. Again, the ECU was putting the timing back in so fast the engine couldn't recover from knock.
It should be noted that most every racecar does not have knock sensors, most stand alone efi systems do not offer knock sensors, carbureted race engines do not employ knock sensors, in fact the new efi setup that NASCAR uses does not employ knock sensors. It’s always best to take a look at the racing world, see what they use and understand why they do or don’t use certain things. It is of my opinion that if a 800+hp race engine can go 500 miles at wide open throttle and not break an engine- they must not be a necessity.
This almost not even worth responding to, but I will. To compare a street driven production car to a race car is idiotic. I guess since NASCAR cars don't have tread on their tires, we don't need that either, by your assessment? These production cars have hypereutectic pistons, and tight ring end gaps. A NASCAR engine has forged pistons, and low drag rings, with who knows what for a ring end gap. Production cars have to run on a variety of fuels. NASCAR engines run on tightly controlled quality fuel.
The piston issue is the real biggie here. No comparison in how a forged piston will tolerate detonation compared to a production hypereutectic. Again, I would have thought a professional engine builder would have understood this. So much for that.
Brian’s car was tuned in the most extreme conditions, it was extremely hot in the shop with high humidity. These are the best times to actually tune as you usually won’t find worse conditions, now the problem is that these are the worse conditions for tuning for a number on the dyno, but what is really more important, a dyno number or a proper tune for conditions the engine may see in an extreme application? Tuning on a cool day can give you better dyno numbers, but what will happen on a hot day, you just don’t know.
The "dyno number" was never in question. It was also not the purpose of retuning. At first the purpose of retuning was to get rid of the hacked PE table, and dial in the MAF table correctly.
As for conditions, yeah, it should have been worse conditions, which leads to my next question. If it was knocking as bad as it was in the cool weather, how bad could it have been in the heat when you tuned it? I wasn't there to witness the run.
This is why oem’s tune in climate controlled dyno cells. This allows them to see what the engine will act like in those extreme applications. Otherwise you are just guessing at what will happen.
I agree with this completely. This is also why they don't setup knock retard recovery rate table 180 times what the originally are. Because "you are just guessing at what will happen".
Look, fact of the matter is, there is NOTHING in a OE calibration that should be jacked by 180 times. NOTHING! especially a "safety net" such as knock retard recovery. This isn't an arguable "method" of tuning. It is common sense.
There are many opinions on what proper tuning is but very little facts, most of the time right or wrong is just an opinion. Everything is debated in tuning from the correct air fuel ratio to how the vehicle should return to idle,everything is a opinion. The only thing that is agreed upon is that the tune should result in no engine damage,how you get there is wide open.
While there is SOME debate on different techniques, there is little debate on how to interpret hard data. There is also little to debate over the disabling of certain systems in a PCM. In this case, we're not talking about the "technique" of hacking a PE table, as opposed to using proper math to achieve an A/F ratio. That is a debated subject, although it is widely accepted that the "correct" way to do it is the MATHEMATICALLY CORRECT way of commanding the desired A/F through PE, and not hacking it. No, in this case, we're talking about something as critical to engine health as timing, or too much timing, or no knock sensors, or too low of an octane rating.
Now, as far as technique, and quality of tuning, etc. there is plenty to pick apart in this tune. I have refrained from doing so, because none of it was critical. It was and is a shoddy tune, but NONE of it was critical to the life of the engine except for the KR table. The PE was hacked, the MAF was left to stock, the fan temps hadn't been changed, the skip shift wasn't removed,the O2 sensors weren't turned off initially, there's a big block of timing right at the top, just to give a "dyno number". Also, bad advice was given to me to change the upstream O2 sensors. Had the tuner known how O2 sensors worked with headers, he would have known that the parameters for expected latency in the O2 sensors would have to have been changed. Not changing the O2 sensors. That could have cost me money that I didn't need to spend. None of these things are unhealthy, they're just evidence of a quick crappy tune. It looks like no time was taken to do anything right, to give the customer a quality product or anything. And then, judging by this response by Shawn, it again appears as if they did nothing wrong, and the only reason anyone is questioning them is to discredit them. I think the tune speaks for itself, and so does their response.
In closing, I am respectfully asking for a refund of my money. Regardless of what VA Speed has done prior to, this is an extenuating case. I asked for a service from VA Speed and it wasn't done properly by any means. The tune was absolute garbage, and then the knock recovery issue could have cause serious engine damage. I asked for a quality "product" (that product being your tune) and I ended up with a quick "hack" job, done the easy way and not the right way. I don't believe this is what VA Speed intends to churn out, but unfortunately that is exactly what is being done.
Thank you for your time with this matter.
Sincerely,
Bryan
Shannon,
Over the last few weeks I have learned an abundance of information regarding tuning via HPTuners forum and also talking with Ed. This has been quite an experience, to say the least. I've learned quite a bit about cars. First, here is Shawn's reply in full. Below that, you will find my replies to his statement.
Originally Posted by Shawn@VASpeed
Shannon, I looked over Brian’s tune. To be honest, I don’t see anything in it that would cause engine damage. The timing map was in a very safe area for that engine. To say that the the way the knock sensors were tuned would cause engine damage would just be false. Understanding the purpose of the knock sensors and how they work would let you know this. There are many opinions on what proper tuning is but very little facts, most of the time right or wrong is just an opinion. Everything is debated in tuning from the correct air fuel ratio to how the vehicle should return to idle,everything is a opinion. The only thing that is agreed upon is that the tune should result in no engine damage,how you get there is wide open.
The purpose of the knock sensors from GM is to combat running low octane gas in their vehicles. In a performance application with proper gas, the knock sensors should never see use. If they do, either the vehicle is tuned improperly or there is some other problem that would actually be covered up by the knock sensors pulling timing out without the driver knowing that the timing was being pulled out. A tune that is tuned to the very edge and then the knock sensors are relied upon to pull timing out during heat soak or extreme hot day is just not correct,in my opinion. What happens if you have a knock sensor failure? The check engine light doesn’t always pop on what there is a failure with systems in the ecu, sensor,wiring. So know you have the possibility of engine damage because you are tuned to the edge without your sensors you are now relying on instead of using as a safety net. The knock sensors were still functional in this case, they just brought the timing back in fast in the absence of further spark knock, if the was still spark knock-the timing stayed out. It should be noted that most every racecar does not have knock sensors, most stand alone efi systems do not offer knock sensors, carbureted race engines do not employ knock sensors, in fact the new efi setup that NASCAR uses does not employ knock sensors. It’s always best to take a look at the racing world, see what they use and understand why they do or don’t use certain things. It is of my opinion that if a 800+hp race engine can go 500 miles at wide open throttle and not break an engine- they must not be a necessity.
Brian’s car was tuned in the most extreme conditions, it was extremely hot in the shop with high humidity. These are the best times to actually tune as you usually won’t find worse conditions, now the problem is that these are the worse conditions for tuning for a number on the dyno, but what is really more important, a dyno number or a proper tune for conditions the engine may see in an extreme application? Tuning on a cool day can give you better dyno numbers, but what will happen on a hot day, you just don’t know. This is why oem’s tune in climate controlled dyno cells. This allows them to see what the engine will act like in those extreme applications. Otherwise you are just guessing at what will happen.
Shawn Miller
Virginia Speed Inc.
757-468-5101
The purpose of the knock sensors from GM is to combat running low octane gas in their vehicles. In a performance application with proper gas, the knock sensors should never see use. If they do, either the vehicle is tuned improperly or there is some other problem that would actually be covered up by the knock sensors pulling timing out without the driver knowing that the timing was being pulled out. A tune that is tuned to the very edge and then the knock sensors are relied upon to pull timing out during heat soak or extreme hot day is just not correct,in my opinion. What happens if you have a knock sensor failure? The check engine light doesn’t always pop on what there is a failure with systems in the ecu, sensor,wiring. So know you have the possibility of engine damage because you are tuned to the edge without your sensors you are now relying on instead of using as a safety net. The knock sensors were still functional in this case, they just brought the timing back in fast in the absence of further spark knock, if the was still spark knock-the timing stayed out. It should be noted that most every racecar does not have knock sensors, most stand alone efi systems do not offer knock sensors, carbureted race engines do not employ knock sensors, in fact the new efi setup that NASCAR uses does not employ knock sensors. It’s always best to take a look at the racing world, see what they use and understand why they do or don’t use certain things. It is of my opinion that if a 800+hp race engine can go 500 miles at wide open throttle and not break an engine- they must not be a necessity.
Brian’s car was tuned in the most extreme conditions, it was extremely hot in the shop with high humidity. These are the best times to actually tune as you usually won’t find worse conditions, now the problem is that these are the worse conditions for tuning for a number on the dyno, but what is really more important, a dyno number or a proper tune for conditions the engine may see in an extreme application? Tuning on a cool day can give you better dyno numbers, but what will happen on a hot day, you just don’t know. This is why oem’s tune in climate controlled dyno cells. This allows them to see what the engine will act like in those extreme applications. Otherwise you are just guessing at what will happen.
Shawn Miller
Virginia Speed Inc.
757-468-5101
Shannon, I looked over Brian’s tune. To be honest, I don’t see anything in it that would cause engine damage.
That's the root of the problem right there. There are problems with the tune that could INDEED cause engine damage.
To say that the the way the knock sensors were tuned would cause engine damage would just be false.
No, this comment is just false. I'm not sure why he thinks having the ECU put in timing unbelievably fast after a knock event occurs is a good thing.
Understanding the purpose of the knock sensors and how they work would let you know this.
I agree. If the tuners at VA Speed understood the function of the table in question, you would not make such an idiotic statement. But please, Shawn, school me.
The purpose of the knock sensors from GM is to combat running low octane gas in their vehicles. In a performance application with proper gas, the knock sensors should never see use. If they do, either the vehicle is tuned improperly or there is some other problem that would actually be covered up by the knock sensors pulling timing out without the driver knowing that the timing was being pulled out.
Ok, now we're getting somewhere. Now we're seeing just how much experience you have with the later model PCMs. Had you had more experience with them, you'd know that from the factory, the knock sensors are so sensitive, that virtually ALL of them have some amount of knock retard even running 93 octane pump gas. So, does that mean they are "tuned improperly" from GM? We'll revisit this comment a bit later.
The knock sensors were still functional in this case, they just brought the timing back in fast in the absence of further spark knock, if the was still spark knock-the timing stayed out.
This is where you are dead wrong, and potentially engine damaging dead wrong. The timing is not put back "fast in the absence of further knock". It is put back AFTER KNOCK HAS BEEN DETECTED AND TIMING IS PULLED. The PCM does not wait until it is no longer knocking. It begins to add the timing back at the rate specified in the knock retard recovery rate table. Don't go by the table definition. Go by EXPERIENCE, WHICH I KNOW YOU LACK. If you look at a data log of knock retard, you can see the timing is added back immediately after the knock occurs. How quickly it is restored is dependent on the recovery rate table. Again, the operation of this parameter is obvious in a data log. You need to completely disregard the table explanation, and look at a log. The table explanations aren't always right.
This is the root cause of the issues with my car. It was knocking audibly. Had the KR recovery rate table not been jacked up so high, the knock would not have been audible. Even if it were suffering from KR, it most likely would not have been audible. The reason it was audible is because the PCM was restoring the timing, faster than it could pull it back out. It resulted in uncontrollable knock. Surely we all know by being in the automotive field that knock isn't good for anything in the motor.
So know you have the possibility of engine damage because you are tuned to the edge without your sensors you are now relying on instead of using as a safety net.
I know you don't understand this, but VA Speed effectively disabled the knock retard.
The timing map was in a very safe area for that engine.
Apparently not if it was audibly knocking, and had no signs of ceasing. Again, the ECU was putting the timing back in so fast the engine couldn't recover from knock.
It should be noted that most every racecar does not have knock sensors, most stand alone efi systems do not offer knock sensors, carbureted race engines do not employ knock sensors, in fact the new efi setup that NASCAR uses does not employ knock sensors. It’s always best to take a look at the racing world, see what they use and understand why they do or don’t use certain things. It is of my opinion that if a 800+hp race engine can go 500 miles at wide open throttle and not break an engine- they must not be a necessity.
This almost not even worth responding to, but I will. To compare a street driven production car to a race car is idiotic. I guess since NASCAR cars don't have tread on their tires, we don't need that either, by your assessment? These production cars have hypereutectic pistons, and tight ring end gaps. A NASCAR engine has forged pistons, and low drag rings, with who knows what for a ring end gap. Production cars have to run on a variety of fuels. NASCAR engines run on tightly controlled quality fuel.
The piston issue is the real biggie here. No comparison in how a forged piston will tolerate detonation compared to a production hypereutectic. Again, I would have thought a professional engine builder would have understood this. So much for that.
Brian’s car was tuned in the most extreme conditions, it was extremely hot in the shop with high humidity. These are the best times to actually tune as you usually won’t find worse conditions, now the problem is that these are the worse conditions for tuning for a number on the dyno, but what is really more important, a dyno number or a proper tune for conditions the engine may see in an extreme application? Tuning on a cool day can give you better dyno numbers, but what will happen on a hot day, you just don’t know.
The "dyno number" was never in question. It was also not the purpose of retuning. At first the purpose of retuning was to get rid of the hacked PE table, and dial in the MAF table correctly.
As for conditions, yeah, it should have been worse conditions, which leads to my next question. If it was knocking as bad as it was in the cool weather, how bad could it have been in the heat when you tuned it? I wasn't there to witness the run.
This is why oem’s tune in climate controlled dyno cells. This allows them to see what the engine will act like in those extreme applications. Otherwise you are just guessing at what will happen.
I agree with this completely. This is also why they don't setup knock retard recovery rate table 180 times what the originally are. Because "you are just guessing at what will happen".
Look, fact of the matter is, there is NOTHING in a OE calibration that should be jacked by 180 times. NOTHING! especially a "safety net" such as knock retard recovery. This isn't an arguable "method" of tuning. It is common sense.
There are many opinions on what proper tuning is but very little facts, most of the time right or wrong is just an opinion. Everything is debated in tuning from the correct air fuel ratio to how the vehicle should return to idle,everything is a opinion. The only thing that is agreed upon is that the tune should result in no engine damage,how you get there is wide open.
While there is SOME debate on different techniques, there is little debate on how to interpret hard data. There is also little to debate over the disabling of certain systems in a PCM. In this case, we're not talking about the "technique" of hacking a PE table, as opposed to using proper math to achieve an A/F ratio. That is a debated subject, although it is widely accepted that the "correct" way to do it is the MATHEMATICALLY CORRECT way of commanding the desired A/F through PE, and not hacking it. No, in this case, we're talking about something as critical to engine health as timing, or too much timing, or no knock sensors, or too low of an octane rating.
Now, as far as technique, and quality of tuning, etc. there is plenty to pick apart in this tune. I have refrained from doing so, because none of it was critical. It was and is a shoddy tune, but NONE of it was critical to the life of the engine except for the KR table. The PE was hacked, the MAF was left to stock, the fan temps hadn't been changed, the skip shift wasn't removed,the O2 sensors weren't turned off initially, there's a big block of timing right at the top, just to give a "dyno number". Also, bad advice was given to me to change the upstream O2 sensors. Had the tuner known how O2 sensors worked with headers, he would have known that the parameters for expected latency in the O2 sensors would have to have been changed. Not changing the O2 sensors. That could have cost me money that I didn't need to spend. None of these things are unhealthy, they're just evidence of a quick crappy tune. It looks like no time was taken to do anything right, to give the customer a quality product or anything. And then, judging by this response by Shawn, it again appears as if they did nothing wrong, and the only reason anyone is questioning them is to discredit them. I think the tune speaks for itself, and so does their response.
In closing, I am respectfully asking for a refund of my money. Regardless of what VA Speed has done prior to, this is an extenuating case. I asked for a service from VA Speed and it wasn't done properly by any means. The tune was absolute garbage, and then the knock recovery issue could have cause serious engine damage. I asked for a quality "product" (that product being your tune) and I ended up with a quick "hack" job, done the easy way and not the right way. I don't believe this is what VA Speed intends to churn out, but unfortunately that is exactly what is being done.
Thank you for your time with this matter.
Sincerely,
Bryan
Last edited by CTS-V Bryan; 01-27-2012 at 12:05 PM.
01-27-2012 | 11:43 AM
#16
Thread Starter
Registered Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
From: Newport News
Re: VA Speed tune - Never again.
This was the reply I received:
No explaination on my previous email where I replied to Shawn's statement. The reason I didn't revisit VA Speed was a trust issue. I'm not going to take it back to them to adjust their hack tune, since obviously they have no clue how to correctly tune a car. Not to mention, according to Shawn's evaluation said that the tune was fine and dandy, and there was NOTHING wrong with it. FFS....
So I shot this back:
And this:
Bryan,
Good morning.
Upon picking up your vehicle in July of 2011 and revisiting us shortly after, you did not address any concerns with your vehicle. Recently, information regarding Virginia Speed's tune was provided to you by another tuner. We would have welcomed the opportunity to review your tune with you and address any concerns you may have had. However, we were not given this opportunity. This would have been the proper procedure requested by Virginia Speed, Inc.. Unfortunately, we are unable to meet your request for a refund.
Best Regards,
Shannon
Virginia Speed, Inc.
1397 Taylor Farm Road,
Virginia Beach, VA 23453
757-468-5101
Good morning.
Upon picking up your vehicle in July of 2011 and revisiting us shortly after, you did not address any concerns with your vehicle. Recently, information regarding Virginia Speed's tune was provided to you by another tuner. We would have welcomed the opportunity to review your tune with you and address any concerns you may have had. However, we were not given this opportunity. This would have been the proper procedure requested by Virginia Speed, Inc.. Unfortunately, we are unable to meet your request for a refund.
Best Regards,
Shannon
Virginia Speed, Inc.
1397 Taylor Farm Road,
Virginia Beach, VA 23453
757-468-5101
No explaination on my previous email where I replied to Shawn's statement. The reason I didn't revisit VA Speed was a trust issue. I'm not going to take it back to them to adjust their hack tune, since obviously they have no clue how to correctly tune a car. Not to mention, according to Shawn's evaluation said that the tune was fine and dandy, and there was NOTHING wrong with it. FFS....
So I shot this back:
Shannon,
VA Speed's lack of effort to work with a former customer is monumental. It really shows the true intentions of your shop, and lack of integrity and professionalism, not to mention lack of a tuner who knows how to tune. It is for these reasons that I will not recommend your services to anyone that so inquires. VA Speed's inability to solve problems that arise show everyone what kind of shop is run there. These findings, accompanied by facts will be posted on several forums as a review of VA Speed.
Good day.
VA Speed's lack of effort to work with a former customer is monumental. It really shows the true intentions of your shop, and lack of integrity and professionalism, not to mention lack of a tuner who knows how to tune. It is for these reasons that I will not recommend your services to anyone that so inquires. VA Speed's inability to solve problems that arise show everyone what kind of shop is run there. These findings, accompanied by facts will be posted on several forums as a review of VA Speed.
Good day.
Shannon,
I'd also like to add that according to Shawn's evaluation, he is
saying that the tune was acceptable. VA Speed's tune on my car was
downright DANGEROUS. If the engine had blown up at speed, there is no
telling what the car have done. Thrown me into a wall? Hit the grass
and flipped?
Food for thought.
Bryan
I'd also like to add that according to Shawn's evaluation, he is
saying that the tune was acceptable. VA Speed's tune on my car was
downright DANGEROUS. If the engine had blown up at speed, there is no
telling what the car have done. Thrown me into a wall? Hit the grass
and flipped?
Food for thought.
Bryan
01-27-2012 | 12:14 PM
#17
management
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 5,412
Likes: 0
From: choosing seats
Re: VA Speed tune - Never again.
Id just like to say that I think its ridiculous when a tuner leaves a shop and the shop starts doing shitty work, they try to throw blame at whoever actually knows what theyre doing and fixes the problem
01-27-2012 | 01:56 PM
#18
Registered Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 267
Likes: 0
Re: VA Speed tune - Never again.
Im not one for talking bad about a shop but that woman shannon did not even know the difference between 5 and 7 ply boost couplings. She only has a entire f***ing wall of them staring at her all day. But Im just a retarded honda guy.
Its funny today me and some co worker were driving past va speed today and I told them " hay look it the worlds most expensive speeded shop."
Its funny today me and some co worker were driving past va speed today and I told them " hay look it the worlds most expensive speeded shop."
01-28-2012 | 09:04 PM
#20
WEEEEEEEEEEE
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 23,730
Likes: 0
From: Live: From Planet Earth