Import Car Makers Vs. Domestic Car Makers (opinion thread)
Instructor
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 261
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From: Hampton Roads VA
Originally posted by VTECnology
Stock for stock an S2000 will beat almost any F-body around most road courses. Both track events I've been to (Road Atlanta and Laguna Seca) S2000 in the hands of a proffesional driver were faster than any of the F-bodies (I don't know who was driving the F-bodies). It was honestly amazing to see how much ground the S2000s would pick up in the tighter parts of the track. In the long open parts, the F-bodies would catch up though. Don't take anything the wrong way...Like I said, I'm not downgrading a car or it's abilites just because it's not labeled as a sports car.
Stock for stock an S2000 will beat almost any F-body around most road courses. Both track events I've been to (Road Atlanta and Laguna Seca) S2000 in the hands of a proffesional driver were faster than any of the F-bodies (I don't know who was driving the F-bodies). It was honestly amazing to see how much ground the S2000s would pick up in the tighter parts of the track. In the long open parts, the F-bodies would catch up though. Don't take anything the wrong way...Like I said, I'm not downgrading a car or it's abilites just because it's not labeled as a sports car.
Last edited by racerns; Dec 28, 2003 at 06:32 AM.
Ghost
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 8,841
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From: St Petersburg, FL
Thank you racerns for clearing up the F-body/Mustang handling thing...I was dying to say it first, but it look slike you beat me to it...I actually laughed to myself when I read that!
As for the rest of thread, I think this is a great debate, that is completely unfinishable (sp?). All very good points...some notes:
I know that Nissan actually altered the gearing in the 350Z Roadster to make up for the frame support (and resulting weight), substantially enough that the Roadster actually out-accelerates the hardtop version slightly.
Someone mentioned the MR-2 Spyder handling like a gokart but now having enough power to keep up with other sports-car classes? My rommate's 2000 MR2 Spyder accelarates plenty fast, so if this is the primary argument to rule out MR2's in the Sport Car calss, it is invalid.
And most importantly...where do you guys think the Supra/Skyline/VR-4/RX-7s (Jap Supercars) fit into this? I'm pretty sure only the RX-7 could be remotely considered a contender for being in the class, the Supra is a dream to drive, but not as nimble as the cars you guys are putting in the Sportscar class. I would imagine, if they were domestics, they would be considered Musclecars, but as it is, just we just call them Supercars and be done with them?
As for the rest of thread, I think this is a great debate, that is completely unfinishable (sp?). All very good points...some notes:
I know that Nissan actually altered the gearing in the 350Z Roadster to make up for the frame support (and resulting weight), substantially enough that the Roadster actually out-accelerates the hardtop version slightly.
Someone mentioned the MR-2 Spyder handling like a gokart but now having enough power to keep up with other sports-car classes? My rommate's 2000 MR2 Spyder accelarates plenty fast, so if this is the primary argument to rule out MR2's in the Sport Car calss, it is invalid.
And most importantly...where do you guys think the Supra/Skyline/VR-4/RX-7s (Jap Supercars) fit into this? I'm pretty sure only the RX-7 could be remotely considered a contender for being in the class, the Supra is a dream to drive, but not as nimble as the cars you guys are putting in the Sportscar class. I would imagine, if they were domestics, they would be considered Musclecars, but as it is, just we just call them Supercars and be done with them?
Registered member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 774
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From: Va beach
Definition of A Sports Car
A true sports car is a performance car whose primary function is to provide driving pleasure, and to allow the driver to immerse himself in that experience and communicate with the road as directly as possible. Its purpose is pure and singleminded.
The idea of a sports car has always been the same and it will never change. The designs will change as times change. But the concept will always remain.
A true sports car is light, direct and does without the things that more pedestrian vehicles possess. It is often derived from a race car in some fashion. The car may be a direct variation of a race car. It may feature technology and design from a race car. Or the people who designed and developed it have a competition background. It has heritage.
The car rewards drivers who are skilled and able. All drivers are not created equal. Those who can best feel and understand the subtle messages of the machine are rewarded with the greatest satisfaction. A sports car is meant to be driven well quickly.
What Do Sports Cars Look Like?
They turn your head, they get you interested. You know just from looking at them that they offer performance and excitement. They are not ordinary cars. Even when parked, a sports car gives the impression that it is in forward motion.
What A Sports Car Is Not
Heavy cars are not sports cars. Sedans, wagons, SUVs, and the like are not sports cars. No matter how much power they make, how well they corner, how quickly they can accelerate or stop, or how much they've been modified, they are not sports cars. They may be performance cars. They may have very impressive performance. But they can never be sports cars. Thoroughbreds are horses. But not all horses are thoroughbreds.
A true sports car is a performance car whose primary function is to provide driving pleasure, and to allow the driver to immerse himself in that experience and communicate with the road as directly as possible. Its purpose is pure and singleminded.
The idea of a sports car has always been the same and it will never change. The designs will change as times change. But the concept will always remain.
A true sports car is light, direct and does without the things that more pedestrian vehicles possess. It is often derived from a race car in some fashion. The car may be a direct variation of a race car. It may feature technology and design from a race car. Or the people who designed and developed it have a competition background. It has heritage.
The car rewards drivers who are skilled and able. All drivers are not created equal. Those who can best feel and understand the subtle messages of the machine are rewarded with the greatest satisfaction. A sports car is meant to be driven well quickly.
What Do Sports Cars Look Like?
They turn your head, they get you interested. You know just from looking at them that they offer performance and excitement. They are not ordinary cars. Even when parked, a sports car gives the impression that it is in forward motion.
What A Sports Car Is Not
Heavy cars are not sports cars. Sedans, wagons, SUVs, and the like are not sports cars. No matter how much power they make, how well they corner, how quickly they can accelerate or stop, or how much they've been modified, they are not sports cars. They may be performance cars. They may have very impressive performance. But they can never be sports cars. Thoroughbreds are horses. But not all horses are thoroughbreds.
HHIC
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 19,087
Likes: 0
Originally posted by nutsack
Definition of A Sports Car
A true sports car is a performance car whose primary function is to provide driving pleasure, and to allow the driver to immerse himself in that experience and communicate with the road as directly as possible. Its purpose is pure and singleminded.
The idea of a sports car has always been the same and it will never change. The designs will change as times change. But the concept will always remain.
A true sports car is light, direct and does without the things that more pedestrian vehicles possess. It is often derived from a race car in some fashion. The car may be a direct variation of a race car. It may feature technology and design from a race car. Or the people who designed and developed it have a competition background. It has heritage.
The car rewards drivers who are skilled and able. All drivers are not created equal. Those who can best feel and understand the subtle messages of the machine are rewarded with the greatest satisfaction. A sports car is meant to be driven well quickly.
What Do Sports Cars Look Like?
They turn your head, they get you interested. You know just from looking at them that they offer performance and excitement. They are not ordinary cars. Even when parked, a sports car gives the impression that it is in forward motion.
What A Sports Car Is Not
Heavy cars are not sports cars. Sedans, wagons, SUVs, and the like are not sports cars. No matter how much power they make, how well they corner, how quickly they can accelerate or stop, or how much they've been modified, they are not sports cars. They may be performance cars. They may have very impressive performance. But they can never be sports cars. Thoroughbreds are horses. But not all horses are thoroughbreds.
Definition of A Sports Car
A true sports car is a performance car whose primary function is to provide driving pleasure, and to allow the driver to immerse himself in that experience and communicate with the road as directly as possible. Its purpose is pure and singleminded.
The idea of a sports car has always been the same and it will never change. The designs will change as times change. But the concept will always remain.
A true sports car is light, direct and does without the things that more pedestrian vehicles possess. It is often derived from a race car in some fashion. The car may be a direct variation of a race car. It may feature technology and design from a race car. Or the people who designed and developed it have a competition background. It has heritage.
The car rewards drivers who are skilled and able. All drivers are not created equal. Those who can best feel and understand the subtle messages of the machine are rewarded with the greatest satisfaction. A sports car is meant to be driven well quickly.
What Do Sports Cars Look Like?
They turn your head, they get you interested. You know just from looking at them that they offer performance and excitement. They are not ordinary cars. Even when parked, a sports car gives the impression that it is in forward motion.
What A Sports Car Is Not
Heavy cars are not sports cars. Sedans, wagons, SUVs, and the like are not sports cars. No matter how much power they make, how well they corner, how quickly they can accelerate or stop, or how much they've been modified, they are not sports cars. They may be performance cars. They may have very impressive performance. But they can never be sports cars. Thoroughbreds are horses. But not all horses are thoroughbreds.
Srsly.
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 14,449
Likes: 0
From: Kalamazoo
Originally posted by racerns
Where in the world do you get that? I have never seen a comparison of the 2 cars where it was thought that the Mustang was the better handling car. In any of the race series that require the cars to keep the stock suspension (T2, American Sedan, and Motorola Cup) the f-body dominates the mustang. It is generally known that the Mustangs suspension geometry is not the best design and that is why you will find that, in series that it is allowed, the old suspension is ripped out and basically replaced with a completely new geometry suspension. This would be something like a full Griggs suspension. The American Iron series allows this and here the Mustangs have been doing well because they now handle better and are easier to make into a lighter race car than the f-body. The f-body on the other hand has a very good suspension design and generally does not need any change in geometry to improve handling, just a change in spring/ bar rates and the stiffening of parts. This is not a flame, just facts.
Where in the world do you get that? I have never seen a comparison of the 2 cars where it was thought that the Mustang was the better handling car. In any of the race series that require the cars to keep the stock suspension (T2, American Sedan, and Motorola Cup) the f-body dominates the mustang. It is generally known that the Mustangs suspension geometry is not the best design and that is why you will find that, in series that it is allowed, the old suspension is ripped out and basically replaced with a completely new geometry suspension. This would be something like a full Griggs suspension. The American Iron series allows this and here the Mustangs have been doing well because they now handle better and are easier to make into a lighter race car than the f-body. The f-body on the other hand has a very good suspension design and generally does not need any change in geometry to improve handling, just a change in spring/ bar rates and the stiffening of parts. This is not a flame, just facts.
Last edited by Brock Obama; Dec 28, 2003 at 08:15 AM.
Hating...
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 4,246
Likes: 0
From: In the NSX
Originally posted by nutsack
Definition of A Sports Car
A true sports car is a performance car whose primary function is to provide driving pleasure, and to allow the driver to immerse himself in that experience and communicate with the road as directly as possible. Its purpose is pure and singleminded.
The idea of a sports car has always been the same and it will never change. The designs will change as times change. But the concept will always remain.
A true sports car is light, direct and does without the things that more pedestrian vehicles possess. It is often derived from a race car in some fashion. The car may be a direct variation of a race car. It may feature technology and design from a race car. Or the people who designed and developed it have a competition background. It has heritage.
The car rewards drivers who are skilled and able. All drivers are not created equal. Those who can best feel and understand the subtle messages of the machine are rewarded with the greatest satisfaction. A sports car is meant to be driven well quickly.
What Do Sports Cars Look Like?
They turn your head, they get you interested. You know just from looking at them that they offer performance and excitement. They are not ordinary cars. Even when parked, a sports car gives the impression that it is in forward motion.
What A Sports Car Is Not
Heavy cars are not sports cars. Sedans, wagons, SUVs, and the like are not sports cars. No matter how much power they make, how well they corner, how quickly they can accelerate or stop, or how much they've been modified, they are not sports cars. They may be performance cars. They may have very impressive performance. But they can never be sports cars. Thoroughbreds are horses. But not all horses are thoroughbreds.
Definition of A Sports Car
A true sports car is a performance car whose primary function is to provide driving pleasure, and to allow the driver to immerse himself in that experience and communicate with the road as directly as possible. Its purpose is pure and singleminded.
The idea of a sports car has always been the same and it will never change. The designs will change as times change. But the concept will always remain.
A true sports car is light, direct and does without the things that more pedestrian vehicles possess. It is often derived from a race car in some fashion. The car may be a direct variation of a race car. It may feature technology and design from a race car. Or the people who designed and developed it have a competition background. It has heritage.
The car rewards drivers who are skilled and able. All drivers are not created equal. Those who can best feel and understand the subtle messages of the machine are rewarded with the greatest satisfaction. A sports car is meant to be driven well quickly.
What Do Sports Cars Look Like?
They turn your head, they get you interested. You know just from looking at them that they offer performance and excitement. They are not ordinary cars. Even when parked, a sports car gives the impression that it is in forward motion.
What A Sports Car Is Not
Heavy cars are not sports cars. Sedans, wagons, SUVs, and the like are not sports cars. No matter how much power they make, how well they corner, how quickly they can accelerate or stop, or how much they've been modified, they are not sports cars. They may be performance cars. They may have very impressive performance. But they can never be sports cars. Thoroughbreds are horses. But not all horses are thoroughbreds.
I agree that a sports car becomes a greater extent of the drivers extremity, but weight has nothing to do with that. The r34 Skyline is in relative terms a pig, and yet is said to be one of the most road connecting, driver oriented performance cars. And it handles darn well. Any body can make a sub 2000lb car handle like a go-kart, because for basic part it is a go-kart. What does this say about a sports car and its weight? It says that it takes better technology/design/function/performance to make a heavy car handle and feel like a light car. THAT imo is what the sports car encompases.
FUCKIN MAGNETS
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 22,585
Likes: 0
From: Norfolk
Originally posted by nutsack
Definition of A Sports Car
A true sports car is a performance car whose primary function is to provide driving pleasure, and to allow the driver to immerse himself in that experience and communicate with the road as directly as possible. Its purpose is pure and singleminded.
The idea of a sports car has always been the same and it will never change. The designs will change as times change. But the concept will always remain.
A true sports car is light, direct and does without the things that more pedestrian vehicles possess. It is often derived from a race car in some fashion. The car may be a direct variation of a race car. It may feature technology and design from a race car. Or the people who designed and developed it have a competition background. It has heritage.
The car rewards drivers who are skilled and able. All drivers are not created equal. Those who can best feel and understand the subtle messages of the machine are rewarded with the greatest satisfaction. A sports car is meant to be driven well quickly.
Definition of A Sports Car
A true sports car is a performance car whose primary function is to provide driving pleasure, and to allow the driver to immerse himself in that experience and communicate with the road as directly as possible. Its purpose is pure and singleminded.
The idea of a sports car has always been the same and it will never change. The designs will change as times change. But the concept will always remain.
A true sports car is light, direct and does without the things that more pedestrian vehicles possess. It is often derived from a race car in some fashion. The car may be a direct variation of a race car. It may feature technology and design from a race car. Or the people who designed and developed it have a competition background. It has heritage.
The car rewards drivers who are skilled and able. All drivers are not created equal. Those who can best feel and understand the subtle messages of the machine are rewarded with the greatest satisfaction. A sports car is meant to be driven well quickly.
'06 FF Champ
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
From: Tennessee Valley
Re: Import Car Makers Vs. Domestic Car Makers (opinion thread)
Originally posted by Hybrid AWD
the TT supra's faded out a while ago leaving the basically the skyline to hold up the inline 6cyl class and not that is goign bye bye.
the TT supra's faded out a while ago leaving the basically the skyline to hold up the inline 6cyl class and not that is goign bye bye.
Instructor
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 261
Likes: 0
From: Hampton Roads VA
Originally posted by XCELR8
I have always thought/known that a Mustang handled slightly better than the Camaro/Trans Am. I am not trying to be biased in any sence either, but I could have swore that it was this way. I have driven MANY LT1 and LS1 F-bodies and when on them hard in the twisties I think they feel disconnected and suffer from more body roll than the GT+ Mustang. They remind me a lot of a Cadiallac or something. I have done no testing other than driving the two (obviously) and the only facts I have to support this is magazine BS (and we all know how magazines are). Either way what I thought the Mustang led the F-body by in lateral G-force was something like .02 of a G., something like the Mustang would hold a .86 and a F-body would hold a .84. Either way its really not that big of a deal, just trying to explain where I'm coming from. Where did you get your info from that shows the #'s?
I have always thought/known that a Mustang handled slightly better than the Camaro/Trans Am. I am not trying to be biased in any sence either, but I could have swore that it was this way. I have driven MANY LT1 and LS1 F-bodies and when on them hard in the twisties I think they feel disconnected and suffer from more body roll than the GT+ Mustang. They remind me a lot of a Cadiallac or something. I have done no testing other than driving the two (obviously) and the only facts I have to support this is magazine BS (and we all know how magazines are). Either way what I thought the Mustang led the F-body by in lateral G-force was something like .02 of a G., something like the Mustang would hold a .86 and a F-body would hold a .84. Either way its really not that big of a deal, just trying to explain where I'm coming from. Where did you get your info from that shows the #'s?
I am not sure what numbers you want to see but here is a link the results of this years national SCCA run offs. Here are a few good links detailing the Mustangs suspension design and some of its short comings.
Mustang Suspension
Griggs
The first link compares the Mustang suspension set up to an Unequal Length suspension or SLA. This is the type of setup that the f-body has for its front suspension. I don't have the link but I have seen a full computer analysis of the f-body front suspension and it showed that there was not much to do to improve it geometry wise. For the rear suspension you will see the first link points out how the addition of a locating device, like a pan hard bar, and a torque arm would be improvements. The f-body already has these incorporated into its rear suspension. Is this the type of info that you are looking for?
Thread Starter
Your Local DSM Tech
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,711
Likes: 0
From: Newport News
Re: Re: Import Car Makers Vs. Domestic Car Makers (opinion thread)
Originally posted by 94SupraTT
The last model year for the MKIV Supra was 2002. The last model year for the GTR was 2003 I believe. So its not like the GTR was holding up that class alone for all that long. I think Japanese car makers and American car makes are just different. Their mindset is different. In the USA we have always had pure muscle. The same is not true for the Japanese cars. Sure they have had performance cars however not cars that were just pure muscle. Even the govt in Japan is even against it. They imposed at 276hp limit on cars to try to twart HP wars between automakers. I think that import performance cars will rebound but you will never see Japan export 500hp/500tq cars its just their style.
The last model year for the MKIV Supra was 2002. The last model year for the GTR was 2003 I believe. So its not like the GTR was holding up that class alone for all that long. I think Japanese car makers and American car makes are just different. Their mindset is different. In the USA we have always had pure muscle. The same is not true for the Japanese cars. Sure they have had performance cars however not cars that were just pure muscle. Even the govt in Japan is even against it. They imposed at 276hp limit on cars to try to twart HP wars between automakers. I think that import performance cars will rebound but you will never see Japan export 500hp/500tq cars its just their style.